Part 2 of our Tax Appeals series, this episode is NOT for Dummies, but does explain in the simplest terms the entire tax appeal process in Allegheny County, PA.
A self-proclaimed “greatest podcast ever recorded on tax appeals”, this simple to understand (yet entertaining) tutorial walks property owners through the entire Allegheny assessment appeal process and offers the strategies for fighting these tax appeal cases.
Rock Star Tax Appeal Attorney Nicole Amick guides listeners through the first level BPAAR hearing and the second level BOV hearing and teaches the best way to defend school district property tax appeals, including what NOT to say or do.
Our team of experts break down the best secrets for winning your tax appeal, including why property owners should almost never attend the first level hearing on their own, and keep your damn mouth shut.
We also explain why you do not have to answer questions from the County, and never, ever let anyone in your house.
Stay tuned toward the end of the podcast for "Breaking News" about Allegheny County property assessments that could change the rules of the game for everyone.
Nothing dumb about this episode, except maybe us for giving away all of our secrets for free.
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Please rise. Court is now in session.
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All rise.
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All rise.
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I strenuously object. A legal podcast brought to you by the Pittsburgh law from a Flaherty Fardo
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is now in session.
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All those seeking information about the law and legal matters affecting the people of Pittsburgh
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and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, half-baked opinions and a dose of self-indulgence
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are invited to attend and participate.
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I want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
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I object, your honor.
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Your honor, I object.
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You would!
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Listen, we don't know you. We don't know who you are. We don't know what you do.
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So please do not rely on anything we say as legal advice.
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I'm Noah Fardo, presiding. My wingman, attorney Bill Rugell.
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And all we're trying to do is bring a little irreverence.
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That's just what this stubby company needs! A little irreverence!
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Well, let's start the insanity.
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Call the first witness.
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Hi, it's Mike, the podcast producer here.
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I just want to mention something before we begin this episode.
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A little later in the podcast, the guys bring on a great guest, their partner,
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a seasoned tax appeal expert, Nicole Amick.
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As you'll see, no one knows the tax appeal system like Nicole.
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But I think it's important to know that Nicole was born and raised in Buffalo, New York,
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and is a big football fan. I'll just leave it at that.
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It should help explain why Bill Rugell brutally blindsides her out of nowhere during her segment.
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So stay tuned for that and enjoy the podcast.
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Hey, good morning, Bill.
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Hello, how are you today?
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You know, I'm excited. I'm in a good mood.
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I think we get to help people today.
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That's good. I'm excited for it.
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Listen, I'm sitting here looking at seven coffee mugs on the table here in front of me.
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I have done some some bad things in my life.
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It appears to have reached this particular point.
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But one of the one of the good things I'm about to do in my life is take part in this podcast,
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which is going to help some people save some money.
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Show me the money.
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Well, yeah, I think this and tell me if you disagree.
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I think this will be the greatest single episode of a podcast on how people can lower their property taxes in Allegheny County that has ever been created and which may ever be created.
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That's a possibility.
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Yeah, sure.
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I mean, if you add enough limiting words in there, this becomes an absolutely true statement.
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It is the best one that we have ever done, at least since the last one until the next.
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Yep.
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All right.
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When we're very good at patting ourselves on the back.
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So let's talk about why people should be listening to this today.
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We called it tax appeals for dummies.
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I mean, but it's not for dummies.
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It's for anybody who wants to lower their property taxes.
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Agreed.
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Agreed.
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I look I don't know how data that reference is anymore.
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Right.
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You know, there was a whole spate of for dummies books that, you know, like kind of mid to late 90s, maybe into the early 2000s.
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They may still publish.
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They may still be everywhere.
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People also may just not read books anymore.
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I don't know.
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But rest assured, dear listener, we're not going to be able to do that.
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We're not calling you dummies.
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I can handle things.
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I'm smart.
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Not like everybody says.
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I'm dumb.
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I'm smart.
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And I want respect.
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At least beyond the way in which the authors of the much more famous than us book series Once Upon a Time Called You Dummies.
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Well, they were easy to read.
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We're going to make this easy to listen to.
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And let's tell listeners first, what can they expect from a general outline to learn or understand today, Bill?
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Well, yeah, I mean, I think they're going to learn what a property assessment is and how it relates to their taxes.
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They're going to learn about the procedures.
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The one entity called B par that holds hearings and another entity called the B.O.V. that holds hearings and what those entities are and what happens at those hearings.
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And then eventually we're going to get around, in addition to going through the procedure, just some helpful hints and temps for how it is that they can save some money in these hearings.
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Yeah, it is hints and temps.
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And I call it the secrets to winning your tax appeal.
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Also, at the end, we're going to talk about some pretty breaking news in the tax assessment world that is changing the landscape of the current tax appeals.
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It may change the entire blow up the entire system.
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I'm also very excited to have our partner and our friend and who I would call one of the leading experts in the entire arena of tax appeals.
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And that's Nicole Amick.
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You know, she's the queen of tax appeals.
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I'm comfortable ascribing that title to her, even if she's mortified by it.
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You know, the most the biggest thing I'm impressed with Nicole when she helps these because we've both done hundreds of these thousands of these.
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We spent a lot of time talking to people, but it's her patience in taking one case at a time, looking at that case, researching it the right way, spending the time talking to the owner.
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I mean, it's an amazing job that she does. And she has great insight.
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She's when there's seminars about tax appeals now, they call Nicole when there's presentations that need to be done.
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It's Nicole giving them. So she's she's really built a great reputation.
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And I think she's going to help people with all that being said, let's get us out of the way and get Nicole on.
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Ladies and gentlemen, our friend, our partner and one of the leading experts in all of tax appeals in Allegheny County, Miss Nicole Amick.
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Good morning, guys.
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I'm going to wait an introduction, the queen of tax appeals.
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I've never heard that one before.
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Get used to it. You're going to be wearing that a while.
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Boy. OK.
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Nicole, before we move into the to the nuts and bolts of our of our podcast today, having recently apparently ascended to the throne of Queen, can you tell us how it is in terms of your history and your background?
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You got involved in property tax appeals.
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So I started working at Flaherty Farto as it was in 2009, which is like 400 years ago.
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And I worked mainly for Noah at that time in my first week at the job.
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So I was a 1L in law school, was 23 years old.
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Noah sent me to my first property appeal hearings.
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So that was how I got started in property appeals.
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And I just kind of I don't know, I took to it for some reason.
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It's saving people money, you know, and it's something that means a lot to people.
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So it's an easy thing, especially when people feel a lot of gratitude and you know that you're making a difference to someone to to be passionate about it.
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But my first week, I had only lived in Pittsburgh for, I don't know, eight months.
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And Noah said, go downtown to this hearing, go downtown to this building, park at this garage.
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I have no idea where I'm going.
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I have probably been downtown Pittsburgh three times.
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I had a GPS, like a Garmin actual physical GPS at the time, which doesn't work downtown because there's tall buildings that.
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At the time, it just wouldn't work.
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So I'm just driving aimlessly around downtown.
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I don't know where I'm going.
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I called my mom.
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I was almost in tears because I'm thinking I'm not prepared to go to a hearing.
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Like, I don't I'm not a lawyer yet, you know.
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And I did my first B-par hearing, which went fine, went better than I was thinking it would.
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And that was kind of the start of where we are now.
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Hey, Mike, it's Mike, the podcast producer.
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So Noah threw you into the deep end your first day.
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How did you feel about that?
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Listen, I am strenuously objecting to this entire story as though I sent an ill-prepared first year law student for a taxable hearing, because that's not factually accurate.
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But sure, feel free to explore.
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It is accurate.
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I wouldn't say I was ill-prepared.
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I think, you know, not to pat myself on the back, but Noah perhaps just thought I was capable of doing it.
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And certainly, I think I handled myself fine.
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It was just, you know, the first like work lawyer thing I was doing.
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It was just a very scary moment that ended up obviously being fine.
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I would just add to that that Nicole was highly confident, or at least faked it till she made it.
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And the evidence was extremely organized and well prepared.
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All right, Your Highness, enough about all that.
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Let's dive into the substance here.
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I want to start with the basics.
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What's your impression on people's understanding of the tax appeal process in general?
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You speak to a lot of property owners.
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I think a lot of people are confused about it and not 100% clear on it.
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The general consensus is Allegheny County has very high property taxes in general.
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So when you have people relocating here, buying a new house, whatever the case is,
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they're already surprised by how high the property taxes are.
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And then they usually receive an appeal after that trying to increase them further.
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So there's definitely some fear, some confusion about the process generally.
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And can you help explain the process in the simplest of terms?
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If I'm getting appealed this year, like so many people are, what is the first step?
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You get a notification from the school district that you've been appealed.
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So the school district will send you a notification that you've been appealed.
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This year, the county also started sending their own correspondence directly to property owners,
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saying that an appeal had been filed with the county.
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So some people were getting that first, which doesn't give you any information.
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It just says an appeal has been filed to challenge your assessment.
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So one of those two documents are sent to you.
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Both of those are sent to you.
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Again, I'm not sure which one you would receive first,
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but that's your first notification that something has happened.
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Now that's just a general form letter.
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That's no information.
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That's not any evidence.
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It doesn't tell you this is the value we're arguing for.
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It just says we're trying to increase your property taxes.
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And that notice, does that tell you when your hearing is or what the next step is?
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Nope. Again, it's just like a super simple form letter that says an appeal has been filed.
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You'll hear from us later type of thing.
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So a lot of the confusion relating to the process starts there,
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just saying, you know, what is this?
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What does this mean?
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What are they trying to do?
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When is the next thing going to happen?
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There's a lot of questions that result from that correspondence.
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And what is the next step?
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So the next step would procedurally be a BPAR hearing,
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which BPAR is the first level of the assessment appeal process.
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A BPAR hearing is scheduled sometime this year between April and August, what they're saying.
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Now, some of the recent developments might shake up how this whole system works,
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but as of right now, you know, that's what they have been saying right now.
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So the next correspondence you would receive officially from the county would be a hearing notice
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saying this is the date and time of your hearing.
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And again, that's just a one page document.
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There's no other information on that.
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Just again, saying this is when your hearing will happen.
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BPAR hearings are now being conducted by phone,
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which was a change because of COVID that they're keeping
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because it just seems to work better.
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And then property owners and all parties have to submit
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any evidence for that hearing at least 10 days prior.
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You've used this term BPAR a couple of times.
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What's BPAR?
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BPAR is an acronym for Board of Property Assessment Appeals and Review.
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So B-P-A-A-R.
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And that again is the first level of the appeals process.
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The BPAR board is the body that issues decisions at that first level of the appeals process.
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Does the property owner have to send their evidence to the school district?
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No.
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So they submit it just to the Board of Property Assessment of the BPAR.
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Does the school district have to send the property owner their evidence in advance?
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The taxing bodies do have to send out their evidence in advance.
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I believe the rule is they have to be postmarked to the property owner 10 days before the hearing.
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One of the problems of that is that you sometimes just receive that the day or two before the
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hearing. You can't really directly submit any evidence to counter their argument because you
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don't have it far enough in advance. But the way that we submit evidence is directly into the
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portal. There's an online portal now where all evidence is located. So you can also see the
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school district evidence there as well. But in terms of mail notifications, even if you've
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retained an attorney, it is sent directly to the property owner. And again, that's usually received
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like a week or five days before the proceedings.
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Okay. So I just want to make sure we're clear. We're talking a little bit about evidence and
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we've mentioned that there's a hearing in front of BPAR, but you said these hearings are by phone
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now. So when you get your notice of the hearing, does it give you a date? Does it give you a time?
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Does it give you information on a phone number to call or how to submit evidence or anything like
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that? There is an instruction sheet. So I misspoke. This is again, a newer thing because of COVID. But
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when you receive the hearing notice, there is an instruction sheet that's included with that as
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well. So it tells you again, the 10 day evidence rule. It tells you where that can be sent,
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the evidence. And it also tells you if you do intend to proceed in this hearing, you have to
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provide a number to the office of property assessment so they know who to call. And if you
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don't do that, then they don't call anyone. They just call the school district and proceed with the
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hearing without you. Now, when you retain an attorney, so for example, when we are retained,
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we file what is called an authorized representative form directly with the county. So they know
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I'm calling Nicole Amick for this hearing, not the property owner, because she's their attorney and
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she's representing them in this proceeding. So that's procedurally how that works. But yes,
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that does say a date and a time. And again, they will call you on the date and time of your hearing.
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Take us through the hearing and what happens after the hearing and whether there's any deadlines or
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timelines associated with that. So at the time of the hearing, it's a little different than what
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people think of as like a legal hearing. There's no negotiating between the parties. There's no
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conversation back and forth, no compromise. They actually do not allow you to do that.
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So what it is, it's a relatively simple procedure. It's the appellant, usually the school district,
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because they file the majority of cases, the appellant goes first and says what their opinion
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of value is. They then go through whatever evidence they've submitted with the hearing officer.
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And then myself or whoever is against them at the time of the proceedings can ask them any questions,
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any comments on their evidence. And then the other party is given the chance to go through
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their evidence, give their opinion of value, again, go through whatever they've submitted as
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evidence for the case. We then have to answer any questions or comments from the school district
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solicitor. And that's really it. There's again, no compromise or anything like that that's discussed
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here. It's really just both sides presenting their evidence to the hearing officer. And the
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hearing officer then takes all that evidence. There's no decision that's made at the time of
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the hearing. I try to be very clear with people because people will call me and say, what happened?
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What's the decision? There's no decision that's actually made at that hearing. So rather, after
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the hearing, we are waiting to receive a disposition by mail. The hearing officer takes all that
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information that was provided by both parties and they make a recommendation to the B part board,
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what we were talking about before that board then issues a decision directly to the property
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owner and their representative two to four months after the hearing, sometimes longer.
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So it's a process that takes a while, but again, there's nothing else that happens in that meantime,
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you're just waiting to receive that decision. And when you receive that decision, that's again,
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just one piece of paper showing this is what's happened. So it will show the previous value,
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and then it will show your new value that sometimes will be the same if it's sustained or go up or
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down, depending on what that decision is. I'd like to pause for a minute. You had mentioned
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submitting evidence and both sides are likely to submit evidence in one of these appeals at the B
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par level. What sorts of things are evidence? What should a property owner be providing
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at these hearings as evidence? So in most cases that are school district filed cases,
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they're looking at a current market value argument. So the way that I argue those specific
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type of cases, and that's the majority of cases that are filed and that we handle, I'm looking for
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number one, comparable sales that show perhaps an overpayment. That's especially true in the
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past couple of years with this crazy market showing, this isn't really a true fair market value.
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Look at all these other properties that have sold that are very similar, et cetera.
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Specific information from the property owner can also be helpful as well. And that would relate to
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specifically anything else that was included in the purchase price. Was there a seller assist?
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Was there a significant amount of furniture that was transferred along? Basically anything that's
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inflating the purchase price beyond what the actual sale of the real estate was. Anything that has
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come up with a property that was not disclosed to someone, or say you had a huge retaining wall
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behind your house and it's collapsed now. So any change in the property from when you purchase it,
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that would depreciate the value from the time of purchase. Or as I said before, anything that
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wasn't disclosed to you. So in Pittsburgh, a common one is a huge flood in your basement or
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something like that. There's a million things that can come up with homes as a property owner. I know
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that. But any of that information can be helpful. And then the third main thing I ask people is,
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do you think you overpaid for your house and why? Now that's a tricky question because especially
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in the past couple of years, people want to go on and on about COVID and everything else,
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which I totally understand. But that mostly relates to specific information. Were you relocating
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from California? You had a weekend to find a house and this is the house you got. Or I talked to
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people during the pandemic that only viewed houses by FaceTime and they were never actually there
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until they actually owned the property when they walked into it. You live next to your mom. There's
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a couple of tangible reasons that I think are helpful. I don't particularly think something like
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our family needed a bigger house is a persuasive argument because as I tell people, there's a
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reason you're looking to buy a house, which is true of everyone that's buying a house. So it's
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mostly, is there an actual reason that you think you overpaid for the property? So those are the
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questions I'm asking property owners at the beginning. Yeah, that's good too. And the one
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thing I always heard, Nicole, was when the buyers would say, well, there was a bidding war and
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several people, we had to pay what we paid. Does that help the property owners or not?
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It's been more difficult the past couple of years because that happens, it seems in almost every
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situation where someone's buying a house. So, I mean, that's kind of the market right now.
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That's what I think too. I don't think it helps them as much as they property owners typically
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think it helps them. So Nicole, you used the word appellant a few times, which just means
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someone who files an appeal versus someone who has an appeal filed on them. Who can file an Allegheny
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County property tax assessment appeal? Any interested party can file an appeal. So that
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means a property owner or any of the taxing bodies. Now, property owners pay three different property
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taxes, the county, the local or municipal and the school district. And the school district is
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typically one of the only taxing bodies that will typically file an appeal. And the process you talked
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about earlier, where you receive a notice in the mail that an appeal has been filed, that's the
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process when the school district is appealing you. How is the process different if a property owner
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wants to file an appeal, his or herself? So property owners have the same deadlines as anyone
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would have if they want to file an appeal, which is typically March 31st of every calendar year.
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Again, this year might be different based on some stuff going on, which we'll talk about later, but
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appeals can be filed either in person by mail or on the county website. I typically file them on
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the county website because you get an immediate response confirming that it's been received. And
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then you get a copy of a timestamped form telling you that it has been filed and received. And then
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you actually also get a letter from the county. Like I said before, just a form letter saying a
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2022 appeal has been filed for your property. Even if you're the one that filed the appeal,
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it's the same letter. So they let you know that an appeal has been filed, even though you would
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already know that. And then the process is the same in terms of waiting for a hearing to be scheduled,
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like I said before, with any school district appeal. Now, how you approach the case could be
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a little bit different because as the appellant, if you're the one that files the appeal, you have
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the option of how you want to proceed with your valuation method. So the evidence is similar to
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what I was talking about before, but as the appellant, if you're filing an owner appeal,
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you can use either a base year argument or a current market value argument. And we didn't
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really talk about the base year before, which is an important thing to talk about when we're talking
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about assessment appeals for dummies, but the base year right now in Allegheny County is 2012.
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So when we're looking at the assessment on any property in the county, what that assessment is
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supposed to be is what was that property worth in 2012? That's the question for any appeal hearing.
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Now, you can look at what sales in 2012 suggests as to a value, or you can look at a current market
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value, which is what, again, the school districts are typically doing when they file appeals,
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and then depreciate that value back to get you to a 2012 value. That's when the common level ratio
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comes in. And I think we're going to talk about that a little bit later, but-
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Yeah. I mean, and just to make sure we understand, would you agree with me that a sale price in and
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of itself does not always equal market value? Market value could be higher than a sale price,
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can be lower than a sale price, agreed? Correct.
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And the goal of any property owner involved in a tax appeal, whether they're the appellant
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as an owner appealing or appealed by the school district, is to prove that their market value,
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not the sale price per se, but the market value is as low as possible. And what you said earlier
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is you do that by using helpful, comparable sales. Is that right?
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Correct. With an owner appeal, the only difference would be you can use a base year value to say the
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base year value, the 2012 value on this property was X. And I'm looking at 10-year-old sales. I'm
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looking at maybe a previous sale on a property, and that is the difference. So it's still focusing
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on sales, but it would be from a different time period because you're looking at the value basically
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from 10 years prior to now. So that would be a big distinction between an owner appeal and a school
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appeal. Two questions for you, Nicole. First, if I'm a property owner right now and I don't have
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an appeal pending, but I'm trying to figure out, should I file an appeal on my property? What should
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I be thinking about? What guides that decision? I would suggest listening later when we talk
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about some of the updates that are going on because that's going to make a big impact on a
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lot of people. So we'll get into that a little bit later in the show when we're talking about
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some stuff that's currently going on with the assessment system in Allegheny County.
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And my second question is, if I am in one of these BPAR hearings, should I be looking for
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comparable sales and evidence that is relevant both to the 2012 base year and the current market
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value? Or should I kind of pick one and do one in a given hearing? So it would be different if you're
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in an owner filed appeal or a school district filed appeal. If you're in an owner filed appeal
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and I represent the owner, I get to choose. So I'll pick one or the other. There's no reason to do
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both. I would just pick one or the other. With a school district filed appeal, again, because
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they're typically focusing on properties that have recently sold, they are in 99.9% of cases looking
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at a current market value for that property. So in order to be responsive to that argument,
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I am preparing sales at the BPAR hearing showing what I think a current market value would be,
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because again, that's what they're focusing the argument on. So I want to have something in
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response to that to show that perhaps that number is not correct. And one question here,
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have you ever seen the school district and their appeals indicate a market value that was greater
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than the sale price or lower than the sale price? Or do they say it 100% of the time we
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think the market value is exactly what they paid? So I've seen a couple times, it's unusual for a
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school district to have an opinion of value in a current market value approach, different from a
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recent sale price. The caveat being that the evidence that they provide, which the hearing
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officer and the board are free to review in making a decision could potentially support a different
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value. And I've seen, and again, it's not a common thing, but I have seen where assessments will
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change based on the evidence provided rather than just looking at the purchase price, which could
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potentially be higher than a purchase price. So that's not a common thing, but I have seen it
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happen. So if I am a property owner and someone has filed an appeal on me, the school district
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has appealed my taxes, theoretically, they could be seeking a value or could be awarded a value
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that's even higher than what I paid. They could. Now, again, you'd be depreciating that back. So
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if you bought your property for $100,000 now, say in 2021, they wouldn't, even if they had evidence
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that showed a value of 105 or 110, so slightly above what you paid, your actual assessment value
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wouldn't be 105 or 110, but the, yes, it could potentially be a situation where your decision
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is above what just your purchase price would technically support.
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Okay. So you have this hearing in front of the hearing officer via telephone these days,
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and no decisions issued at the end. You're waiting around for them to give you a notice
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of that decision from the board. How do you receive that notice from the board and what happens next?
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You will receive a decision by mail, as I said, two to four months, sometimes longer,
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and it's a one page document called a disposition. And all that it says on it is again, it's a
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simple page. This is the previous number from when the appeal was filed. And this is the new number.
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It could be the same, go up, down, whatever. Both sides have 30 days to appeal that decision.
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It says on the decision, this determination is final, underlying bold. But then right after that,
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it says you have 30 days to file an appeal of this decision. So it's a little confusing,
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but you do have 30 days to file an appeal of that decision. And if you do file an appeal of that
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decision, or if the school appeals that decision, the case would then be pending at what's called
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the board of viewers, which the board of viewers is a division of the court of common please in
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Allegheny County. The case would be given a BV docket number. So it's actually a docketed case
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within the Allegheny County department of court records. And I'd say a majority of cases do go
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through both levels of the process. That's not unusual. To file that appeal, you can do so
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online through the department of court records, or I think you can do it in person, although I've
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never done that. It's pretty easy to file it online. There's a filing fee associated with that.
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It's $135 and 25 cents. And again, then you would have a pending BV case number at the board of
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viewers where hearings take six to 12 to 18 months, sometimes longer to be scheduled at that point.
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Nicole, curious, what percentage of the school districts are winning at the first level? I mean,
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who is appealing to the board of viewers? Is it the school district or is it the property owners
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that typically have to appeal? I was just talking to another attorney who handles a lot of these
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cases. And he agreed with me that last year was probably the year that I saw the most decisions
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in favor of the school district that I've ever seen in doing this a long time. So I'd say in 95%
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of cases, even in strong cases, many strong cases, the school district would get what they were
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asking for. And then the property owner or us would be filing the appeal to the board of viewers. So
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I don't know what the breakdown is, but I'd guess that 80%, 75 to 80% of pending board of viewers
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cases are filed by property owners. I would think that's definitely a majority. The school
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district certainly files appeals, say the value is sustained or it doesn't go up as much as they're
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seeking. They almost always will file an appeal of that decision. So it's common one way or the other.
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And what are the actual property taxes owed during the appeal period? How do they calculate
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what those are? You are required to pay whatever your current assessment value is. So if you get
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a determination from the B par at the first level and you file an appeal that day, that does not
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stay you having to pay the increased taxes based on that increased value. So while an appeal is
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pending, you have to pay on whatever. If I look at the County website, whatever your assessment
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value is today, that's what you have to pay your taxes on whenever the case is resolved eventually,
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which can take multiple years. If you've overpaid your taxes based on reductions, you get a refund
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for what you've overpaid for any tax years that were included in the appeal. Now, similarly,
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if the school district has filed an appeal, say the value is sustained at the B par and they
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continue their challenge to the BOV, you'll keep paying taxes on your current value. And then
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whatever increases result down the road, you'll receive additional tax bills at that time. So I
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always say you have to pay in your current taxes. You'll get refunds or bills depending based on
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any changes to the assessment. But that is a problem sometimes with people that have very large
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increases and we're waiting multiple years for things to be scheduled. So that can certainly
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create some headaches. So generally speaking, if an appeal is filed in 2022, that appeal
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does not affect the years prior and any taxes that were already paid. But now the amount of
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taxes that I pay in 2022, as well as going forward, 2023, 2024, however long passes until I get
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reassessed in some form or fashion, those taxes are all affected by what the value is set in that
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appeal. Correct? That's correct. Appeals are not retrospective. But the one thing I'll flag is,
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for example, last year I received a lot of decisions from BPAR. So first level decisions for 2021 in
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December. So it's right at the end of the year, you've already paid all your taxes for the year,
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and then you get an increase and they're going to send you a bill for the whole 2021 year based on
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that increase. So just to flag that whatever tax year has been appealed, that will impact that
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entire tax year regardless of when that decision comes out. So what matters is not when the decision
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occurs, what matters is when the appeal was filed. That year until you're at the end at the
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disposition, all of your taxes that you pay during that time are kind of fuzzy and contingent because
412
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:30,640
you may end up owing more or may end up owing less. Correct. And Nicole, you said that once they get
413
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:35,360
their decision from, once they file their board of view or the second level appeal, which seems
414
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:40,480
like most people can expect to have to do, and their taxes may go up pending that appeal,
415
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,000
but how long does it take to get a second level hearing now at the board of viewers?
416
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:52,400
Yeah, I said six to 12 to 18 months, because I still have cases right now from 2020. And we're
417
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:58,160
almost halfway through 2022. So during the pandemic things, of course, like everything else kind of
418
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,240
fell apart a little bit and the courts were closed for a while and we're still getting caught up from
419
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:07,200
there. I don't know when that will happen. I hope it happens soon, but it's certainly kind of a long
420
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:13,440
process that was made longer by that. And if I'm successful at the board of viewers
421
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,720
in lowering the assessment, would I get refunds for all of the years which were under appeal?
422
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,520
Yes. Tell me what happens at one of these board of viewers hearings.
423
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:29,040
So board of viewers hearings are a more formal type of proceeding than BEPAR. First of all,
424
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:34,080
they're in person. They were on phone by phone for a while, but now they're back in person as of May.
425
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:39,200
So we'll see if that changes depending on numbers and everything, but they're in person. The school
426
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:44,240
district solicitor will show up in person. There's also a solicitor from Allegheny County that attends
427
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:49,440
every single board of viewers hearing. So now we have two taxing solicitors that are always going
428
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:54,960
to be present against us at a board of viewers hearing. Some municipal lawyers will also attend.
429
00:32:54,960 --> 00:33:00,880
So you could potentially be arguing against three lawyers. And the hearings are conducted by a
430
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:07,360
hearing master who acts as kind of like a mediator, I say, and ultimately a judge if we get there. But
431
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:12,160
at least in the beginning, the first time something is scheduled, they call it a conciliation
432
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,520
at the board of viewers. That's what it says on the actual notice. And basically what they're
433
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:20,560
trying to do is get everyone in the same room, sit down, talk about the details of the case,
434
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:26,160
and see if some type of resolution can be met at that time. So this is when negotiation happens.
435
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,480
This is when compromise happens, direct conversation between the parties. And if something
436
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,880
is not met, then the court will take the case and get the case resolved. And if it's not met,
437
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,400
then the court will take the case and get the case resolved. So that's what they're trying to do.
438
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,000
And if it's not met, then the court will take the case and get the case resolved. And if some value
439
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:48,160
that everyone can agree to, you can at that point resolve it, sign the paperwork, and get the case
440
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:53,200
resolved. Now, if that doesn't happen, what the court will do is reschedule you to keep coming back.
441
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:59,120
They will try to conciliate it as much as possible. But if that's just not possible, if the parties are
442
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,680
going to go through the process of actually doing the actual legal proceeding, that's when that
443
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:09,520
happens, where you have witnesses, a court reporter, things of that nature. That's not unheard of,
444
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,960
but it's not super common. But it certainly does happen in some cases.
445
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:19,600
So if it goes to an actual hearing, is it the same evidence from the first level hearing? And you
446
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:24,960
said witnesses. What kind of witnesses would you bring? Do you need witnesses? What's the process
447
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,200
of bringing in a witness to the second level? So the board of viewers, when you file that appeal,
448
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:34,720
it's called a de novo appeal, which basically means throw everything out that happened before,
449
00:34:34,720 --> 00:34:39,920
and we're kind of starting over in a sense, because no party is precluded to just use the evidence
450
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:45,360
they had before. Both parties, any party, the county too, can bring in any evidence they want
451
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,400
at that time. A lot of times school districts will obtain appraisals at the board of viewers
452
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:55,200
and they'll do that at BPAR proceedings. They will sometimes bring their appraiser to the actual
453
00:34:55,200 --> 00:35:00,640
hearing, even the first time it's scheduled, to testify or to talk about what their report says
454
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:05,280
in terms of value. So if it went to a full hearing, you'd be talking about potentially
455
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,520
appraisal reports, depending on if you've obtained one, which sometimes the court will tell you to
456
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,200
do that. If you get to that point, you could have your appraiser talking, you could have the
457
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,200
property owner talking. You could have, I mean, you're not really limited on who you have talked,
458
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,200
but it could be the main two parties that you've had testifying in terms of value,
459
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,200
because that would be the question for that hearing. What is the value of this property?
460
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:31,600
Is Steve Tasker a Hall of Famer? Yes. Okay, hold on. Seriously though, he couldn't crack the field
461
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,840
other than on special teams, right? Go back and watch some of those replays, Bill. Okay.
462
00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:42,320
Is he a Buffalo Bill? Yes. Well, I mean, I don't even recognize his name. So.
463
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:50,400
I'm a football fan, just not a Buffalo Bill's football fan. Let's wrap this up. Let's bring it home.
464
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:55,840
What questions do you think you get asked most often about the entire process?
465
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:01,280
A couple, certainly again, going back to where we started, people are very confused when they
466
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,920
get this. So there's a lot of questions that come up. One of the main questions I get is
467
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:11,040
does Allegheny County do a reassessment every 10 years? There was one in 2002, there was one in
468
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:16,160
2012. Are we going to have one this year? The answer is no. We don't have regular reassessments
469
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:21,760
in this County. We don't know when the next one will be, though I hope that it's soon because we
470
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:27,280
need one, but none is currently scheduled as we sit here today. So we don't know when we'll receive
471
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:34,880
a new kind of starting over with a new base year system in Allegheny County. Another question is
472
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,760
the homestead exemption. People are a little bit confused about that. That's something that you can
473
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,960
file for if it's your primary residence in this County. That's a savings in terms of your County
474
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:50,320
taxes only. That's not related to the appeal. It applies to any new value as well, but sometimes
475
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:55,040
people will say, I held off on filing this because I didn't know, I don't want to mess up my appeal.
476
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,920
They're not related to each other. You can file that anytime. March 1st is the deadline of any
477
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:05,520
tax year for that filing. So let me transition. You said the reassessment and we haven't had one,
478
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:12,080
but the big news this month, I mean, it is if you live in this industry, it is big news that there
479
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:18,480
were multiple lawsuits challenging the ratio that is being used. So let's touch base on that. Bill,
480
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,160
have you followed that? Have you been following that lawsuit and what it could do to the entire
481
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:28,160
Allegheny process? I mean, I've been following it. I don't know how to begin to predict with
482
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,480
any measure of certainty what it will do other than it will throw everything into disarray.
483
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:38,720
Um, but you know, hopefully I know Nicole, you, uh, you had some, um, some recent conversations
484
00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:44,080
about this, is that right? So there was an argument on this case, the main case yesterday.
485
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:50,160
This is a lawsuit that was filed by some property owners, challenging the common level ratio and
486
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:56,960
how that was calculated for Allegheny County. The common level ratio is, uh, basically a value that
487
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:02,480
is given to each County in the state telling you, you multiply, if you're looking at a current
488
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:07,680
market value of a property, you take that value, whatever it is, and you multiply it by this,
489
00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:14,960
and that gets you to the base year. So in 2022, so what we're using for sales from last year,
490
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:25,040
the state told us to use 81.1% to depreciate current sales back to 2012. So basically
491
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:31,440
there's only been a 20% increase of property values in this County over the last 10 years,
492
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:37,840
which is very clearly wrong. Um, but that was the number that was given to us by the state for this
493
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,920
year. So some property owners challenged that value. They challenged the one from last year,
494
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:50,000
which was 87.5% because I'm not sure what led to these big changes in value, but when you're
495
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,760
talking about assessments, those things make a big difference. So there was an oral argument
496
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:58,960
on that yesterday in front of judge Hertzberg in Allegheny County. And I was just reading about
497
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,440
it this morning. There was a consent order that was signed and I don't have all the specifics
498
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:08,160
just because I was trying to read it before we got on here, but basically the County has agreed
499
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:14,560
to look at the sales they provided to be used to calculate the common level ratio.
500
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:22,640
And what that can mean is a pretty significant reduction in what the common level ratio is.
501
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:30,480
Now it's unclear to me how they would ever put this into practice. Basically there's been a lot
502
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:35,520
of cases that have been decided in the past couple of years and cases that are scheduled now that,
503
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:44,880
um, are based on this calculation. So I'm not sure how you just go from 87.5% to 60% or something
504
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:49,920
like that. I think that that just creates all sorts of wacky numbers, but basically what the
505
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:56,720
County has agreed to do is give Pennsylvania different information, more information, which
506
00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:01,280
is what the lawsuit was saying. They didn't give them a full picture of what the sales were and
507
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,920
give them more information to re-evaluate what the common level ratio will be.
508
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:13,280
Isn't what they're saying that the ratio of 80% it's wrong. Um, and that everybody should be at
509
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:18,560
60%, but what's going to happen is, okay, so all of these people that were raised over the last
510
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:23,120
five, six, seven, eight years, they're going to have to file new appeals next year because the
511
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:29,040
ratio went down and simply by filing a new appeal, they should be lower to where everybody else is.
512
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,800
Is that right? Yeah. I mean, it's going to be really interesting to see number one, what that
513
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:38,880
number is. There's no guarantee that it will change though. I imagine it will. It'll be a
514
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:46,080
question of by how much. And another interesting caveat is there was 12,000 appeals filed by the
515
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:50,640
school districts this year already. And I've already started hearings. So we've already started
516
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:57,360
going through all this information based on the current common level ratio of 81.1%. Now in the
517
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,920
article I was reading this morning about the argument that was made yesterday, the B PAR has
518
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:06,400
said that they will not issue any decisions this year until they have clarification on what the
519
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:11,120
common level ratio is and if it's changing. Now that creates a bunch of issues because in some
520
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:17,440
cases the common level ratio drops by 20%, a school district appeal could lead to a reduction in
521
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:22,400
someone's property taxes because the difference wasn't that much. So I don't know. I mean, it's
522
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:27,440
going to be, it'll be interesting to see how it all pans out. It's going to be really messy, but one
523
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:31,440
of the good things will be that when I was speaking with Dave Montgomery, who's the solicitor of the
524
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:36,880
B PAR at, uh, we were both speaking at an event on Monday night. He told me that if there is a
525
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:42,160
significant reduction in the common level ratio that B PAR will certainly consider and likely will
526
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:52,080
reopen the appeal period for 2022. So that could mean a whole host of things. It means that there
527
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:57,280
could be 50,000 appeals filed this year. It means that all the school district appeals could be
528
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,360
withdrawn, though not all of them would be withdrawn because some people are under assessed by more
529
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:10,720
than that, but it would be a huge change to how this normally works. And I don't know how in
530
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:15,600
practice that would work. Um, I think it would just be kind of a little bit of a headache for a
531
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:20,640
while, just because again, they're not prepared to deal with that. Um, they're not prepared right now
532
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:25,440
to deal with 50,000 appeals or a hundred thousand appeals, which could potentially happen. So we
533
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,040
need to see what the number is. We need to see if the change happens, but if it does,
534
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:33,760
what's going to happen from there? This is kind of unknown territory at this point. Oh my goodness,
535
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:39,520
Bill, that is crazy. The city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportion, human sacrifice,
536
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:45,840
dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria. Do you realize if they open the appeal period back
537
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:50,960
in because the ratio dropped, we need to hire two or three more lawyers. There's going to be 50 to
538
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:56,800
a hundred thousand appeals. This affects everyone everywhere in this process. It's going to be
539
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:03,600
everyone everywhere in this process. Right? So every, uh, tax appeal that has been filed in
540
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:10,400
2021 and in 2022, those that have already reached determinations, they apply the common level ratio.
541
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,160
Those that haven't reached determinations, they're just kind of putting in a holding
542
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,440
pattern until they determine what the common level ratio is supposed to be.
543
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:23,280
There may or may not be for property owners who haven't filed an appeal and don't have anything
544
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:28,800
pending. There may be a significant extension of an opportunity for them to file appeals once the
545
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:34,080
common level ratio is set so that even people who don't have pending cases have an interest in
546
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:38,880
figuring out what the changes to the process are because they could file an appeal and save money
547
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:46,640
immediately. I also wonder to what extent it affects people who, you know, had 2017 or 2018 or
548
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:53,120
even 2019 cases, but that resolved more recently. Let's say it went to the BOV where, yes,
549
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:59,280
it was filed in 2019, but by the time you got to the BOV, it was covering 2019, 2020, 2021.
550
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:06,000
At BOV, you talked about the common level ratio for those later years as well in determining what
551
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,560
the assessed value was going to be. Do those cases have to open backed up or are those owners the
552
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:15,120
ones who are going to be stuck paying at this higher rate until the next appeal is filed?
553
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,280
There's so much at stake and so much is in flux here.
554
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:23,280
It is so crazy. Let me ask you one more question, Nicole, and then we'll bring this home again, but
555
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:28,080
are they still scheduling the second level board of viewer hearings? Are they going to put a pause
556
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:33,200
on those two now because, you know, they're considering 2020, 2021, and 2022. Maybe they
557
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,640
should just hold off on those or they're going to create more of a mess. Thoughts?
558
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:42,720
I have a couple that are scheduled right now for May. I, you know, again, this is just new breaking
559
00:44:42,720 --> 00:44:49,760
news. I mean, this just happened. So I don't know. Certainly when I'm talking about cases at this
560
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:56,560
point, you know, it's hard to agree to a resolution because if the ratio goes down 20%, then we're
561
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:01,920
talking about totally different numbers. So it'll be interesting. I mean, you're right, Bill.
562
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:08,560
Basically what I've been told by people in the know, so to speak, is there is no remedy for
563
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:14,160
people that settled cases based on the accurate information at the time other than go file a new
564
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:22,160
appeal. So it's going to be on property owners to do the work themselves or hire us, I suppose,
565
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:27,440
to do it for them. But, you know, it's unfortunate that people, you know, and attorneys who handle
566
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:31,840
these types of cases have been looking at numbers that were given by the state that might be wildly
567
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:37,440
different now and resolving cases for years. And now we're going to kind of have to start at square
568
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:43,760
one and say, okay, now that this has vastly changed everything, we need to reevaluate all these cases.
569
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:48,480
How many appeals do we need to look at to refile new appeals? I mean, again, we need to see what
570
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:53,360
the number is before we can make any decisions on that. But it is going to have a big impact
571
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:58,240
on, you know, budgets for school districts. I mean, everyone, property owners, everyone. So
572
00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:03,920
it's going to be a big decision when we get that number. Yeah, that's, and we'll definitely have
573
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:09,760
you back, Nicole, once we have some more information on how they're going to handle this. That's right.
574
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:15,120
As a podcast that prides itself on giving you yesterday's news tomorrow, we're in a situation
575
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:20,320
here where we're trying to actually break some news. So unfortunately, because this is new and
576
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:24,240
breaking news, we don't have final answers to give you yet. But Nicole, we will definitely have you
577
00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:29,280
back when we when we know something with some more certainty. Yeah. And before your own final
578
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:34,720
thoughts, Nicole, you know, just listening to you today, really break it down and and see how well
579
00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:41,040
you know the information you've living, you're living the information. I would say that I look
580
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:46,960
at you in the prime of your career. And I do think of Jim Kelly losing four Super Bowls. Wow. But
581
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:55,120
but I do. Hold on. First of all, there's a compliment and then there's the passive
582
00:46:55,120 --> 00:47:00,560
aggressiveness in me. But I'm just saying to be a compliment. The fact that we as a society have
583
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:06,320
decided to to cast aspersions on the bills or Jim Kelly when they made for consecutive Super Bowls
584
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:13,120
is ludicrous to me. Yeah. But I mean, the Queen, I will go with the Queen because the way you hold
585
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:19,120
yourself professionally and just the respect you get in the community. Nicole, I think that was very
586
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:24,000
helpful. And, you know, we called this bill, we said in the beginning, this was going to be the
587
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:29,600
best single episode in a podcast about tax appeals that has ever been created. Do you agree? You
588
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:36,240
object? I do not object to that as such, though, to be fair, my sample size is pretty limited on
589
00:47:36,240 --> 00:47:40,960
this. I'm going to go ahead and say that it's the best one because it has to be the only one.
590
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:44,080
Yeah, you're the best, Nicole. Thank you so much. Thanks again for having me.
591
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:50,640
And that's a wrap for this episode of I strenuously object. Hopefully you learned something or had a
592
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:56,000
few laughs and save some money. If so, please subscribe, rate and review us. Tell your friends
593
00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:01,360
to check us out. If you have any questions for our mailing it in segment or other podcast related
594
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:07,600
feedback, email the podcast directly. That's at I object at PGH firm dot com. Thanks, Bill.
595
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:11,840
If you've been appealed by the school district this year and have a property tax appeal question,
596
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:16,800
contact attorney Nicole Amick. She is as good as she sounds. She's one of the best in the business.
597
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:23,040
And for more information, visit our website at PGH firm dot com. Click on tax appeals and there's
598
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:28,080
a couple of good articles. Secrets to winning your tax appeal. Top FAQs for tax appeal.
599
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:34,560
Until next time, some parting advice. My advice to you is to start drinking heavily.
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Okay, Noah, are we adjourned? We are adjourned.
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for future episodes at I object at PGH firm dot com or DM us on Instagram and Facebook.
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